Argentum MODS legal stuff

[CARPEDIEM]

Hey guys, i was thinking that pehaps some guys would want to make money out of the argentum engine by selling mods; So i thought i would make this clear even before the game is released.<br><br>Mods by people outside of Ionside will HAVE to be freeware, you just can't sell it because it will be forbidden by some legal stuff we'll add i guess.<br>Also, the standard user won't be able to make a full Argentum mod, just levels like in RocketElite. Episodes in argentum are built into what we call ION files, nobody but Ionside will have the tools to build ION files, so basically you won't be able to make Argentum 2 and sell it by yourself.<br>And in case someone Reverse engineers ION technology the mod will be illegal because it would be an offense against Ionside's Intelectual property.<br><br>If you plan on making a Freeware Full mod of Argentum we'll gladly make the ION files for you and host them on our server, if you want to do business with argentum then write to busdev@ionside.com and we'll work something out. busdev@ionside.com is the official Company e-mail, if you write somewhere else then you won't get an official reply.<br><br>I'm sure you guys understand, Ionside is a business corporation, not charity corporation hehe. It's not fair that after all our work we would be left out of business oportunities regarding Argentum.<br>

[Moose or Chuck]

i'm sure you can work something out with Carpe. But i'm also sure they will be recieving a cut of the profit.

[randall]

I totally and completely understand the stance that Ionside Interactive has taken. This type of situation is not uncommon in the software industry. <br><br>But I don't agree with it.<br><br>Here are some things to think about:<br>-------------------------<br><br>A) Ionside created the underlying engine. The Ag name and its associated files (graphics, audio names, etc.) are also wholly owned by Ionside interactive. Nobody can touch that. Even Carpe can't take Ag outside the company.<br><br>B) A Mod comprised of entirely new files (a total conversion) is wholly owned by the associated creators, as long as the material is original and their own. In other words, a person cannot create a Star Wars mod and claim it as "theirs". Under this circumstance, Ionside had nothing to do with the creation of the Mod, and therefore should not recieve any monies. HOWEVER... The Mod is completely dependent on the engine... keep reading.<br><br>-------------------------<br><br>A) Once Ionside Launches Ag, immediate sales will be huge. Sales will soon dwindle, but there will be periodic spikes in sales. These spikes will occur at key moments in the PocketPC timeline. Sales of AG will increase during the holiday season- in concert with sales of NEW PocketPCs. Also, enhancement patches will cause spikes in sales. The longer the Ag recieves attention, the longer life it will recieve.<br><br>B) The release of Mods are the surest way to ensure Ag will recieve an extended lifespan. With the launch of every Major Mod, Ionside will see another spike in sales. Sure, there will be many lame attempts at mods- but I fully expect at least TWO mods that will blow everyone away. At least one of those mods will be created by Ionside.<br><br>-------------------------<br><br>A) Ionside has so much invested in Ag, that they are taking measures to prevent parasites from making any money off their product. That is understandable and justified.<br><br>B) I do not recall paying Adobe or Idruna for any graphics that I created using their tools. I am able to sell the imagery at a hefty price. I admit that application software is different than gaming software. But they do have something in common- neither is going to guarantee or induce creativity. How many mods have you seen that were complete crap, even though the underlying engine was the most badass thing you have ever seen?<br><br>-------------------------<br><br>A) Once Ag is launched, Ionside will have the opportunity to change the industry. Everyone will be watching, especially the heavies like Zio and JimmySoftware. Even industry watchers from PC and Console games will be paying attention.<br><br>B) Id Software was scrutinized by the industry- because NOBODY can make money by offering their game as shareware. Um... guess what? Their unconventional ways altered the industry landscape, and they have become one of the most influential companies in the world. Yes, it was risky move. But where would Id Be if they hadn't?<br><br>-------------------------<br><br>A) While we are on the subject of Id, another breakthrough was the idea of licensing the engine. Id didn't invent licensing, but think of the games that are derived from Id technology.<br><br>B) Those games are more than Mods, so they required source code. At this time, I don't think the Pocket Gaming industy has matured enough to command the hundreds of thousands of dollars that the Quake engine, Unreal engine and LithTech engines get per license. Of course, I can easily see a company buying out Ionside, once it has a bit more intellectual property under its belt. Once that happens, none of you will be able to develop a Mod and sell it for a game YOU created.<br><br>-------------------------<br><br>Once again, I respect the stance that Ionside has taken. I stand by the decisions you have made, and will follow the outlined "legal stuff" without argument.<br><br>However, I am also in "business" and will not be doing any free mods. If that means I will not be working with the Ag engine, then so be it. I am sure you understand.<br><br>Sorry this post is so long, and WAY out of line. But I just had to say something.

[CARPEDIEM]

Well we haven't discussed this yet so i really can't say much about "cuts", but i'm pretty sure it won't be too much, maybe a one time payment or maybe a fair %, i don't really know. I do understand that Mods are good for argentum, that's why prices and % won't be at all high.<br>

[RaGe]

I personally thinkg this is how you should handle this.<br><br>Make Argentum as editable as Quake is. id Software doesn't allow people to sell their mods, or total conversions, and no body has even attempted it as far as I know. If your licensing says you can't sell your mods as shareware, then people won't do it, simply because they can be sued. <br><br>Make it so that you can't change certain things, like an intro image that flashes whenever you load Argentum, saying Developed by Ionside. Something that can't be taken out, that will make it impossible to simply redistribute your game and call it thier own. <br><br>By making it where only certain people, with your approval can make total conversions, your killing a part of the Argentum audience. <br><br>Another reason not to do this, mods aren't made in one great big leap, they're developed over time. If I had to submit our files to you just to test every new features added, I would simply move to another game and mod it. It's simply to time consuming to have to make a small bugfix, then wait for someone at Ionside to review it over, make it into an ion file, then post it. Modders simply won't work this way, believe me, I know.

[Malmer]

First we haven't discussed this issue and haven't decided how the modding thing is going to be handled. So we really want your input on that.<br><br>Second, the game does support reading from external files. Just create the correct file in the correct folder and the game will use that one instead of the one in the archive. So developers wouldn't need to submit to ionside for review all the time. As for an SDK it will probably be released a while after the game, mainly because it takes a while to write an SDK (software development kit) with tutorials and reference and stuff, but also so that people don't cheat too much in the game. And as we don't want the general John Doe to change the game and ruin it I think we will have it so that you have to register as a mod-er with us, and e-mail us to get the tools. <br><br>We will probably "ionice" all the mods we distribute on our homepage, both making installation easier and protecting your intellectual property. The ionicer tool won't be available to the public though, because of several reasons. One is that it is written using Windows Scripting Host which would make reverese engineering extremely easy <br><br>As for having mods that must be free vs. mods you could sell we havn't talked this over. I think the best sollution is to force all mods to be free, but there should also be the option of negotiating a deal with us for bigger mods that would be sold. In these cases we would probably also be open to change certain things in the engine to fit your needs. We probably also could handle things like creditcard processing and exposure through our webpage.<br><br>Give us your input. We are, as we have always tried to be, open to your suggestions, even though we not always agree with them. Many good things in the game has come from your suggestions.<br><br>Fredrik.<br><br>

[RaGe]

I believe you should release all the tools to the public. Let the game be totally modable. Just make it so that you have to register to get the SDK. But people won't want to have to send thier files to be "ioniced", and would probably distribute thier mods without sending them out.<br><br>Make it easy for us to mod.

[suchiaruzu]

[randall]

I really didn't expect this to be open for discussion, but since there was an invitation...<br><br>I can see alot of issues with trying to force a modder to go through a process to get their stuff "ionized". People just won't do it. A few will, but is that going to hinder creativity.<br><br>There are ten billion mods (an exaggerated number)on the internet. I would say with 99.9% of them NOBODY got paid a dime. That's unfortunate. There are alot of mods I would pay for, because I think they are THAT good.<br><br>I think people should PAY for CS (Counter-strike for those of you who don't know). I don't think VALVE should see a penny of that money.<br><br>edit: Infiltration for Unreal Tournament may be a better example, and epic should see ZERO cut of the profit- randall<br><br>That's the difference between artists and coders. Your code is limited in its functionality. The artistic mind is limitless. Let your code be what it is- limited, and let those who are creative expand it in ways you never imagined.<br><br>I am going to scrutinize every aspect of that game, and exploit every feature I can to get that thing to snap. At that point, it isn't Ag anymore. Unfortunately, it doesn't appear I will be using that knowledge to create a mod.<br><br>Also, by forcing modders to get files "ionized", you are ensuring you are in the loop. Nice gimmick to ensure you generate income.<br><br>Nothing travels faster than loss of credibility and shrewd behavior.<br><br>By the way... WE AT POCKETMATRIX.COM demand a cut of the profits for the IDEAS we provided.<br><br>Thank you for your time and consideration.

[CARPEDIEM]

Hey guys, why are you all getting so pissed off about?, Fredrik already said that you don't need the ionizer to test your maps and mods.<br><br>¿and what's that stuff about you guys getting a piece of the profits?, i am already down to getting 30% of the money, you want me to get even less money??, i thought you guys were here to help us make a better game. PocketMatrix will probably get a review copy a day before any other webpage, so if they are fast they can have the exclusive.<br>

[randall]

We aren't pissed. At least I'm not.<br><br>You guys run the company the way YOU think it should be run, and do things the way YOU think they should be done. But do it TOGETHER.<br><br>We are getting crossed signals here. First, Carpe makes a statement, then Fredrick says "we haven't discussed it yet".<br><br>Carpe, you know I repect you and everything you have worked so hard for. At least I hope you do, deep down. When Ag is released, and the final stance of Ionside is announced, I will determine the next steps for my project(s).<br><br>It will in no way affect the way I think of Ag, or the individual members of Ionside Interactive. It does, however stand in the way of how I view Ionside as a COMPANY.<br><br>Carpe, if you want to discuss this, I'll give you my number. I am seriously not looking for an argument. I am not looking for any "secrets" that Ionside might have. We'll keep it on strictly a professional level- consider me a client that is interested in the engine. Because THAT is what I am.<br><br>I think if you heard the tone in my voice and the determination I have, you might understand a little more. Text can be read a multitude of ways, and cultural/language barriers don't help any.<br><br>If you don't take me up on the offer, I think you could be losing client. Welcome to the business world.

[CARPEDIEM]

Well you said it, it's business world, that's why we want to get some money out of our work, and that's why we take our precautions to ensure this.<br>And fredrik and i are together on this, if you read one of my posts you'll see i said we still hadn't discussed what we would charge or what our % would be.<br>There's no confusion here, nobody can sell a mod without the authorization of Ionside.<br><br>And you guys shouldn't get so alarmed over this, as i said before, our price will be VERY affordable.<br><br>Besides it's not that we'll just make the darn ION file, we'll probably have to code some stuff in the exe to fit your needs, the game is not THAT moddable, it will get more and more moddable as we get requests from you guys, that way you'll be able to do whatever you want.<br><br>And if you want to discuss this by the phone just drop me an e-mail and i'll send you my phone number.<br>

[randall]

check your mail.

[Malmer]

Could you send me a copy too?

[randall]

copy of what? I just sent Mr. Davalos my phone number. If he is shy, I have no problem giving him a call. I do need his number though.<br><br>Not be an ass, but I am only interested in speaking to Carpe. It is the way I do things, and the way I feel most comfortable since I know a little more about him. I don't tolerate speaking to the PR person if I need the CEO.<br><br>First order of business is that we will establish parameters. If either of us feel uncomfortable giving an answer, then we will just decline comment. No pressure, I just need to be told to back off.<br><br>I am not going to give away MY project secrets, and I don't expect Ionside to do so either.<br><br>The purpose is to discuss what I need and expect, and what Ionside can offer. This isn't about "what Randall can do for Ionside", you guys are selling the product and I am buying.<br><br>I am not kidding, and this isn't a test run. We really do need an engine to drive our project. We had discussed the possibilties of Ag, until this bombshell was dropped.<br><br>And I know why it was dropped on us.<br><br>It would be helpful to have numbers as soon as possible- ie the percentage you guys expect from each mod. How little is little?<br><br>Thank you for your time and consideration.