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Vote Bush


Postby Maf54 » Jul 24, 2004 @ 11:20pm

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Postby warmi » Jul 24, 2004 @ 11:55pm

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Postby Maf54 » Jul 25, 2004 @ 1:13am

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Postby Warren » Jul 25, 2004 @ 2:19am

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Postby warmi » Jul 25, 2004 @ 2:27am

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Postby Jaybot » Jul 25, 2004 @ 2:54am

-------
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Postby Mike Bannick » Jul 25, 2004 @ 3:06am

The president has been kidnapped by ninjas.
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Postby sponge » Jul 25, 2004 @ 3:14am

holy internets batman.
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Postby Kevin Gelso » Jul 25, 2004 @ 3:19am

I cant vote yet :? . But I saw this on [/url]
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Postby Andy » Jul 25, 2004 @ 3:22am

There's no reason to see a Moore movie except for entertainment. He isn't a reliable source of information. At best, you'll get highly skewed information. Most of the time, you'll get outright fiction. You can't take anything the guy says at face value.
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Postby sandmann » Jul 25, 2004 @ 7:28am

The fates lead him who will;
Him who won't, they drag.

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Postby chuck » Jul 25, 2004 @ 3:24pm

OH yay, i was waiting for this to come up. The entire movie has been debunked by a 17 year old girl... are you ready?

Debunking Farenheit 9/11

by Brittany Craigo

For months, many have anticipated the debut of Michael Moore’s Farenheit 9/11. What would he say? What would he uncover? What new theory would he attempt to convince the public of, by cutting and pasting strips of footage, as he did in Bowling for Columbine and Roger and Me? I had heard about many of the phony claims and conspiracy theories to occur in Farenheit 9/11. And I knew that sooner or later, I would be forced to debate one of the many automatons who had been indoctrinated by his socialist propaganda. I knew, however, that I couldn’t critique a movie that I had not seen without being disingenuous. So I strapped on my Bush gear and headed toward the theatre to watch the quasi communist in action.

The movie opens with the 2000 election. I was baffled to hear Moore claim that “numerous investigations said that Gore won Florida.” Which numerous investigations were these? The New York Times1, the Washington Post,2 and USA Today,3 reported the same consensus after both recounts: George W. Bush won. I’m willing to accept the fact that, nationally, Gore won the popular vote. That is accurate. However, we have something called the “electoral college.” But to claim that “numerous investigations said that Gore won Florida” is preposterous! This is undoubtedly why Moore didn’t choose to name these “numerous sources.” There were none.

Then, in a pure pathetic act, Moore shows footage of CNN calling Florida for Gore, followed by Fox News calling Florida for Bush, and then CNN retracting their previous claim. The theory here was that Gore had won Florida and numerous stations announced it until, lo and behold, Fox News said Bush won Florida and the rest of the news stations “followed their lead.” First off, the notion that CNN and the rest of the news stations would all of a sudden change the results to fit those of one station- Fox News- is ridiculous. I highly doubt that Tom Brokaw sat; waiting for what Fox said in order to “follow their lead.” If that were the case, I would argue that CNN and all the rest who changed their results, to fit those of Fox News, should be wiped off the face of journalism as we know it. Just imagine it: “Well... Fox News said Bush won... we better say Bush won too!” Give me a break.

Why did Fox News call Florida for Bush? They didn’t. Fox News, along with CNN, ABC, NBC etc. all incorrectly called Florida for Gore more than an hour before polls had closed in several conservative Florida counties.4 After getting wind of the fact that they were all wrong, Fox News and the rest of the stations retracted their statements. But what does Moore do in this movie? The same thing he does in all of his movies. He spliced and diced the footage to make it seem as though Fox News deliberately lied and somehow convinced the rest of the stations to lie too. But there is a much more important fact that Moore unintentionally raises here: By calling Florida for Gore before the polls had closed in these highly Republican counties, residents didn’t bother to vote, since the election had already been called in Gore’s favor. According to Democratic strategist Bob Beckel, Bush lost up to 8,000 votes because of the media’s reporting errors.5 But Moore didn’t mention this. Instead he mentions that George W. Bush’s cousin was working for Fox News that night. What he fails to mention, however, is that, as previously noted, Fox News called Florida for Gore as well and by the time Fox had corrected itself and announced Florida for Bush at 2:16 a.m., all polls were already closed and there was no harm to be done. I wonder how Moore missed all those facts.6

After the Florida debacle, Michael Moore introduces us to the ‘convoluted’ relationship between the Bush family and the House of Saud. First off, though wouldn’t consider myself “politically correct,” and though I think that the Saudi government is obviously not one of perfection, I found Moore’s depiction of the Saudis to be unfair. The fact that Michael Moore chose to lump all Saudis and members of the Royal Saudi family into the terrorism category is completely hypocritical. Isn’t Michael Moore supposed to be the liberal-minded peace-keeper, looking out for minorities and such? His attempt to convince ignorant viewers that the House of Saud is only akin to George Bush is a pure example of his manipulative nature. Needless to say, I was beyond surprised when those surrounding me in the movie theatre shook their heads at every Saudi that flashed upon the screen. Imagine if someone had depicted all blacks as Black Panthers or all Moslems as part of the Taliban! That isn’t ok. But depicting every Saudi as a terrorist is, simply because they have a relationship with America and, thus, its current president.

Moreover, if Bush “wakes up in the morning, thinking about what’s best for the Saudis, rather than thinking about what’s best for you” (as Moore claims), why did we invade Iraq? By invading Iraq and securing those oil fields, the Saudis probably stood to lose billions of dollars! Aside from that, the Saudi family members are Sunnis; the thought that we would liberate the Shiites of Iraq plagued them with fear. This is precisely why King Fahd exclaimed, before we went to war, that Saudi Arabia “rejects outright any infringement on Iraq’s unity, independence, resources and internal security, as well as a military occupation”7 Michael Moore, however, presumes that maybe Bush “told Prince Bandhar not to worry because he already had a plan” (meaning Iraq). Yes, “don’t worry Prince Bandhar. We’ll soon be taking billions of dollars away from your family and liberating your archenemy!” I’m sure that made the prince feel wonderful. Moore obviously lacks common sense on this issue, or at least hopes his audience does.

In addition, Moore’s overexerted attempt to paint the Bush-Bin Laden connection as anything spectacular is ridiculous. As the movie notes, the Bush family was connected to the Bin Ladens, (who claim to have disowned Osama), through the Carlyle Group. But the Carlyle group is a highly connected D.C. firm that specializes in aerospace and defense investments, so good luck finding any government official who isn’t tied to the Bin Ladens. Even George Soros, who is probably the most anti-Bush figure in America right now, has 100,000,000 dollars invested in the Carlyle Group; Bill Clinton is affiliated with the Carlyle Group, along with his former Secretary of State, Madeline Albright8 and, according to John Hardman, “Jimmy Carter met with 10 of Osama Bin Laden’s brothers early in 2000 on a fund-raising trip for the Carter Center in Atlanta.” If you ask me, George Bush needs a few more Saudi friends in order to keep up with the Democrats!

The Bush-Bin Laden “connection” all comes into play as we “learn” that the White House allowed the Bin Laden family to fly out of America after the attacks. I can’t blame Michael Moore for this mistake because there have been many new revelations since he began making his film. In fact, in an interview with The Hill, Richard Clark, the ex terrorism czar who recently wrote a book denouncing the Bush administration, admitted that it was his own sole decision to allow the Bin Ladens to fly out of the country. He stated that, “I take responsibility for it. I don’t think it was a mistake, and I’d do it again.”9 While Moore was most likely unaware of this fact at the time he was making his movie, he was dishonest in implying that the Bin Ladens’ departure from the U.S. was on September 11th, while all other planes were grounded. In fact, the Bin Ladens departed in the days following September 11th, when the grounding for commercial flights had already been lifted.

Moore also accuses Bush of “taking too many vacations.” We’ve all heard this before. He cites a Washington Post article, claiming that during the first eight months in office, Bush was on “vacation” 42% of the time. I decided to do a little research on that article and- surprise surprise- found his claims to be a bit, shall we say, “off.” It was actually the first year and eight months in office and included trips to foreign nations to discuss foreign policy. According to that Washington Post article, most of that time was spent in Camp David.10 Perhaps this is why one of the photos we see of Bush “vacationing” at Camp David, is a picture of George W. Bush and none other than Tony Blair- the Prime Minister of England. And while Moore attempts to leave the audience with the impression that Camp David is a place for lounging and drinking beer, Wikipedia Encyclopedia states that it “[is] often used for formal and informal discussion between the United States and world leaders,” and cites many historical negotiations that have taken place there.11

Moore finally takes his biggest cheap shot at President Bush; chastising him for continuing to calmly read to students in Florida (for seven minutes) after just having been informed that the World Trade Center had been attacked. I couldn’t help but giggle at this one. You know that leftists have got their panties in a twist, when they resort to this in order to criticize the president. I suppose Moore expected Bush to live up to his “cowboy status” by pulling a Glock out of a holster and yelling, “BRING ‘EM ON!” On the contrary, Bush acted in a complete professional manner. Anyone could clearly see from the expression on his face, that he was in complete shock and distress, though he remained calm. In fact, the teacher who was in the room, at the time, recently came rushing to Bush’s defense, explaining that his calming effect had, “helped us get through a very difficult day.” She admitted that she had not voted for Bush, but said, “That day I would have voted for him.”12 Ouch.

Moore then begins to talk about the infamous memo that the White House received before September 11th, entitled, “Bin Laden Wants to Attack America.” Aside from the fact that we’ve known Bin Laden wanted to attack America since 1993, Moore forgets that the memo shed no light as to when or where the attack would take place. After all, fourteen out of the seventeen sentences in that PDB were historical in nature. But perhaps Bush purposely ignored the memo, knowing full-well what was about to happen. As Moore wonders, “Maybe the war in Afghanistan was really about something else.” He notes that “In 1997 while George W. Bush was Governor of Texas, a delegation of Taliban leaders from Afghanistan flew to Houston to meet with Unocal executives to discuss the building of a pipeline through Afghanistan, bringing natural gas from the Caspian Sea.” When I first heard this, I thought I had surely missed something. But then I remembered who had directed the garbage I was watching, and began thinking logically once again. What did Governor Bush have to do with the discussion to build a pipeline in Afghanistan? That pipeline was sought out under the Clinton Administration. Yes, Bush happened to be governor of Texas at the time, but that’s completely irrelevant to the meetings which occurred between Unocal and the Taliban at Bill Clinton’s concession!13 But Moore plays with words; purposely including irrelevant information regarding Bush, to connect him with the topic at hand. Moreover, when the pipeline deal was actually implemented in 2002, Unocal released a press release, stating that, “Unocal has no plans or interest in becoming involved in any projects in Afghanistan.”14

If I were to present an award to the slimiest element in Farenheit, it would have to go to Moore’s depiction of Saddam Hussein and his regime before the invasion of Iraq. Oh it was a wonderful place. We see children flying kites, a woman getting married and Saddam holding a child. I can’t even express the outrage that causes me, having known someone whose family was slaughtered by Saddam Hussein’s henchmen during the invasion of Kuwait. This crossed the boundary between an anti-Bush documentary and a new form of Leni Riefenstahl-like propaganda. The way Moore portrayed Saddam Hussein was exactly the way that she portrayed Adolf Hitler, in order to gain support for the Nazi agenda. By claiming that Saddam Hussein “never took the life of any American or threatened any American,” Moore fails to acknowledge the 148 American soldiers killed (in combat) by Saddam Hussein’s regime during the Gulf War,16 his attacks on American planes patrolling no-fly zones for a consecutive ten years after the Gulf War15 and his attempt to assassinate George H.W. Bush; but I guess military personnel and Republican presidents don’t count. And of course, it wouldn’t be a Michael Moore film without the footage of those evil, brutal American soldiers of ours. Not one of them is cast in a good light. Instead, we are shown only what Michael Moore wants us to see- insensitive hicks, just looking for a thrill and a few soldiers who are vehemently opposed to the war. There are no heroes; few patriots- only Moore’s presentation of how he views Americans. He also fails to mention that the structure we see being so ferociously destroyed by American explosives was Saddam’s Iraqi Ministry of Defense.17 Needless to say, he furthers the idea that the U.S. military is reckless, heartless, and brainless.

Then, of course, we’re subjected to the baseless rhetoric about the PATRIOT Act. I found it interesting that while Michael Moore decides to “read” the Act to the senators from his ice cream truck (in order to point out its many over-looked “flaws”), the audience never hears it. We don’t even hear a snippet of the PATRIOT Act’s abuse of civil liberties. Why? Because Michael Moore knows quite well that if we were to hear or read the PATRIOT Act for ourselves, we would realize how necessary and, in fact, over-due it was. For anyone who is unfamiliar with the PATRIOT Act, it represented a huge breakthrough in the way our intelligence shares information. Sec. 203 finally allowed law enforcement to share information with intelligence agencies. This is crucial to our national defense and, indeed, imperative, if we wish to prevent another 9/11. Despite the fact that there have been no documented Civil Rights abuses under the PATRIOT Act, Moore rounds up a few paranoid cooks that insist they were targeted by the FBI, for being against the war. In reality, the PATRIOT Act allows the same search and seizure methods that are already allotted for local crime. Search warrants and “reasonable cause” are still mandatory under the PATRIOT Act.18

Moore then pulls a stunt which had the audience in tears. He spoke with Representative Porter Goss, who was defending the PATRIOT ACT. Gross informs Moore that problems with the PATRIOT Act can be reported by calling a toll-free “800 number.” We then see words flashed across the screen, informing the audience that there is no “800 number,” but that Goss does have a private telephone line, as he flashes their (202) office number across the screen. Once again, while Moore won a few laughs, he was lying through his teeth. The U.S. House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence (where problems with the PATRIOT act can be reported) does have a toll-free number, though its prefix is (877). The number is 1-877-858-9040.19 Somebody ought to tell Moore, so he doesn’t have to go through the trouble of yelling it over a loud-speaker in an ice cream truck again.

Of course it wouldn’t be a Michael Moore film without him doing what he’s famous for- heckling unsuspecting people and making them look crazy for not taking him seriously. He approaches some Congressmen, in order to get them to “sign their kids up for the army.” It was just asinine. How does a parent sign their child up for the army? His rationale for doing so is that “only one congressman has a son or daughter enlisted in the armed forces.” FLAT-OUT-LIE. According to Kelly Beaucar, who wrote a Fox News article, entitled, Handful of Congressman Send Their Kids to War, “There are at least seven members of Congress with children in the Armed Forces.” In fact, there are eight: Tim Johnson(D), Marilyn Musgrave(R), Ed Schrock(R), Joe Wilson(R), John Kline(R), Duncan Hunter(R), Todd Akin(R)20, and Joe Biden(D)21 are all Congressmen who have children currently serving in the military, not to mention the 36 veterans in congress22. And Moore would probably disheartened to know that his favorite punching bag, John Ashcroft, also had a son serving in the military.23

Moore seems to have a knack for ignoring relevant information. Upon discussing the Coalition of the Willing, he only mentions the small countries that don’t possess troops, while leaving out the countries which do, such as Poland, England and Australia.24 And of course we’re supposed to be disgusted that our armed forces possess large quantities of low-income earners and minorities, and that recruiters often go to the more unfortunate towns, looking for people to enlist. Think about that argument. Leftists like Moore are upset when a company doesn’t hire enough minorities and upset when the military hires too many! Only someone as ungrateful as Michael Moore, could be appalled at the fact that low-income earners from places like Flint, MI are “targeted” by the military and granted the greatest opportunities that America has to offer- education, money, benefits, housing, training, food and heroism. But, of course, Moore sees none of these things. He is still too blinded by his hatred for the United States and his belief that the U.S. military is the embodiment of shame.

Michael Moore ends Farenheit 9/11 with a quote from George Orwell. I, myself, have a quote from George Orwell that Moore just may have overlooked.
“If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, he that is not with me is against me.”25 I couldn’t have said it better myself.

Some links below may require registering to online newspaper.

1: http://www.nytimes.com
2 :http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com
3: http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... damain.htm
4: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/l ... 100915.asp
5: http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/l ... 100915.asp
6: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2000/11/ ... 9357.shtml
7: http://www.kentucky.com/mld/kentucky/5421527.htm
8: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlyle_Group
9: http://www.hillnews.com/news/052604/clarke.aspx
10: http://www.washingtonpost.com
11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_David
12: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004 ... 2357.shtml
13: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/2016340.stm
14: http://www.unocal.com/uclnews/98news/centgas.htm
15: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_War#Casualties
16: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0211/18/sdi.06.html
17: http://www.nypost.com/postopinion/and http://slate.msn.com/id/2102723
18: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_PATRIOT_Act
19: http://intelligence.house.gov/
20: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,82469,00.html
21: http://www.washingtontimes.com
22: http://grunt.space.swri.edu/senatevet.htm
23: http://www.washingtontimes.com/functions
24: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003
25: http://www.george-orwell.org/l_quotes.html


(original source) http://www.larryelder.com/911/debunking911.html
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Postby Maf54 » Jul 25, 2004 @ 3:32pm

I read it and I am too lazy to argue against it because I agree with most of it. My only problems are a few. First off she said that there were not numerous reports that said Gore won Florida. If Michael said a fact like that in the movie its true. I say this because he had the best fact checkers money can buy working on his film. Also in some places in this article she brings her own opinion rather than facts into the matter. Something that puts her on the same playing field as Moore.
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Postby Bjorn Keizers » Jul 25, 2004 @ 3:58pm

Everything you read, everything you hear or see on TV, whether it's the news, a documentary, an ad: it's all biased, lies and bullshit. But Moore... Pff, I'm no Bush fan, but even I'd defend him against that. There are no facts whatsoever in Fahrenheit, and the ones that are more or less correct get twisted to fit Moore's ideas.

Problem is, no matter how well informed you think you are, you don't know shit. Just because you hear it on the news or read it in the papers doesn't make it the truth or fact. Everybody has an agenda and the people who say they don't still put their own spin on it based on their interpretation of the 'facts'. That's why I never take anyone serious if they claim to be better informed or know the 'truth' because face it: you're just as much in the dark as everyone else.
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Postby Maf54 » Jul 25, 2004 @ 4:29pm

There are plenty of facts in Farenheit 9/11. Just you only see facts that support one idea.
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