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THE US IS AT WAR!!


Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby TechMage » Oct 16, 2001 @ 2:15am

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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby randall » Oct 16, 2001 @ 2:51am

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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby TechMage » Oct 16, 2001 @ 3:25am

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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby Paul » Oct 16, 2001 @ 5:03am

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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby jongjungbu » Oct 16, 2001 @ 8:30am

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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby Luciano U. Werner » Oct 16, 2001 @ 8:47am

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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby Dan East » Oct 16, 2001 @ 11:08am

Well, I'm not exactly sure why I'm getting into this. I guess I feel a clarification is in order, as most people do not at all have an accurate view of Christianity. I suppose this is my interpretation of why things are the way they are. Sorry, but it's long.<br><br>I think there are a very great number of people who believe there is a God; where God is responsible for creating and setting our universe and world in motion, as well as the creation of life. My purpose here is not to debate whether or not there is a God, but more to illustrate who I think He is. The problem is that a great many people fail to trudge the the "religions of man", and even cults, in their search for who God really is, and how they can reach heaven when they leave this world, reality, or whatever you want to call it.<br><br>If you start In the beginning, God created everything that we see exists. Most scholars agree that the "days" of creation as referred to in the original Hebrew were metaphoric, and did not represent actual 24 hour rotations of our globe. Further, the original Hebrew text in the beginning of Genesis refers to a recreation or reshaping of the earth, as opposed to its first creation. It can be argued that the earth was populated before humanity, and these eras were populated with creatures. Perhaps they met their end in a way similar to the holocaust referred to in Revelation, when the earth will be purged. But I digress from my real topic.<br><br>God, being perfect, would create a self-sufficient, self-sustaining, self-replicating system. If you were perfect, would you not create something perfectly balanced, so that once set it motion it need not be tweaked or maintained ever again? You could then watch it unfold and grow for your pleasure. Well, that was how humans, Eden, and all its creatures (which are subordinate to and for the pleasure of humans) were created. Perfect health, perfect balance. Humans were created for God's pleasure and for companionship. He created intelligent, sentient beings that he could walk with, and talk to, and enjoy what decisions and thoughts they produced without His manipulation. They were to worship Him - of their free will. Of course who could not worship such a God when seen in that perfection. Everything was about "free will". It had to be a choice to worship God - he already has ministering angels that were created just to worship Him (btw, when people die and go to heaven they do not get wings and become angels - they are a different species). Hence the Tree of "the knowledge of good and evil", and it's infamous apple. All it was was a choice. It was an opportunity for sin and failure that had to exist for humans to have free will. Satan is a whole different topic. As a quick note, Satan is not "God's evil equal", like a yin-yang thing. He is a fallen angel, who deceived and caused an additional large number of other angels to follow him and also be kicked out of heaven for eternity. That occurred before Adam and Eve, and the only real power Satan has on this earth is the power usurped or granted to him by believers.<br>Back to the topic. :) After partaking of the apple, hence sinning and disobeying God, everything was compromised. As my dad likes to say "God has no plan B". In other words, what God creates is perfect, and that is the way it should be. When Adam and Eve sinned, they brought upon themselves, and unfortunately for us, a curse upon their descendants (humanity). Their bodies were compromised, and now every human is destined to die eventually. I believe their very DNA was corrupted, and we may not even look exactly the same as Adam and Eve. I also believe at that point everything created for humans was cursed as well. Thus every living thing was similarly cursed (again, as mankind had dominion over all other living things, and they were created for our pleasure, they were taken down as well). Hence that is the state of things. All is compromised. Our ancestors sinned and thus had to be removed from the grace of God, as they were unpure and with sin, and cannot exist in His perfect presence in such a state.<br>So, from that time on a sacrificial system was in place. Mankind had to sacrifice the purest things they could produce or acquire in order to attempt to bridge the gap to God. Of course nothing in this world (or perhaps universe) is pure, so there could be no perfect sacrifice to offset Adam and Eve's sin. Hence Christ. He descended from heaven to be become a common man - but he was without sin. Thus he could be that sacrifice to offset Adam and Eve's sin. Hence (most) Christianity believes that the way to heaven and righteousness, and back to our original intended place, is to proclaim what Christ is and what he did for us. That's it. No other prophet (Mohammed, etc) has ever said "I am the way". They could only say "I've been enlightened more than you - follow me to the truth", Jesus said "I am the truth".<br><br>Sooooo, the whole works-justification thing ("he was more of a good person than a bad person while he was alive - so he gets to go to heaven" ) is wrong. As unfortunate and unfair as it is, Adam and Eve did us in. God provided a gift in what Christ did. It was - had to be - something that we did not deserve. God doesn't want humanity to fail, or for us to go to hell, but we had to be given a choice in Eden, and we choose wrong. Technically we should all go to hell, but again, Christ provided that perfect sacrifice for us, and gave us an opportunity to make things right with God.<br><br>So, I don't know what all that accomplishes for you. Religions were not created by God. Churches were not created by God. They are a institutions created on this earth by humans, in an attempt to find the truth about God and the bible, and to enlighten others with what they believe. Paul, who was one of the closest and most enlightened disciples, who wrote most of the New Testament and walked in-person with Christ, lamented how very little we see or know about the Truth and God, and what is really "behind the scenes".<br>Hmm, I guess one of my points to all of this is that Churches and religions are falliable and with error. So don't let that discourage your seeking God.<br><br>Dan East
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby James » Oct 16, 2001 @ 11:24am

Careful Dan.  You might get labeled as a puppy-eating religious nut.  :)<br><br>I never wanted this discussion to take this turn.  Matters of faith touch all of those secret spots that call into question existance.  I admire your stance for declaring your Christrianity.  <br><br>It will interesting to see how your post is received.  You are a respected member of this "community."  Even though I have never not stated my faith beyond a brief reference to a soul and a spirit, I was rather soundly trounched upon as an animal-abusing religious zealot.<br><br>James
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby Dan East » Oct 16, 2001 @ 11:53am

I've expressed similar views here a few times before, so it's nothing most PM people haven't already seen. :)<br><br>BTW, don't put two spaces after your periods (like a good typist). If a D has two spaces before it it will turn into a smiley.<br><br>Dan East
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby James » Oct 16, 2001 @ 11:55am

Thanks!<br><br>BTW, I am a Christian.<br><br>James
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby RICoder » Oct 16, 2001 @ 1:05pm

Dan, thanks for Christianity (I should say Medieval Chrisitianity) 101. I too am impressed that someone would post at such length about their faith...espesially in a world that usually poops on people like that.<br><br>And, James, I didn't call YOU a zealot, but there is a difference in tone between Dan's post and most others. That's why we all respect him.<br><br>Geeze, this turned into a kiss-dans-ass post...
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby Luciano U. Werner » Oct 16, 2001 @ 2:37pm

Intresting point, Dan, and very well explained. I still think that you go to heaven or hell (if any of those exist) depending on your "behavior" on this life. If what you say is true (who is to know?), then it doesn't matter because Adam and Eve screwed everything up from the beginning.<br>There must be something after this, because it would be real dumb for something to exist with all the capabilities that we have and then just *poof*, your dead, with all your dreams and passion becoming nothing.<br>In fact, I can't accept that our only function on this Earth is to live, reproduce and die like every other living creature. You don't need to dream to acomplish that.
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby RICoder » Oct 16, 2001 @ 2:42pm

Additionally I am hard-pressed to accept that God, in whatever form, would create a creature with free will and no proof of His existence and then subject that creature to punishment for not divining Gods will.  Seems cruel.
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby Paul » Oct 16, 2001 @ 2:43pm

i have no problem with religion. i believe in... something, but it wont fit into one of these exisiting i just dont like the way most people interpret it all which always seems to be the problem doesnt it. anyways, i'm clearly rubbish at expressing myself as you can all see - it comes out the wrong way... <br><br>so i'm glad people like randall and techmage are around. they usually seem to say pretty much what i want, in a way people can understand...<br><br>so you believe what you want. i'll believe what i want and lets get down to some good old-fashioned pq fraggin' (corny? dont know the meaning of the word)
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Re: THE US IS AT WAR!!

Postby James » Oct 16, 2001 @ 2:46pm

RIC,<br><br>What kind of proof would you like?<br><br>James
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