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ATI Imageon and e740


Postby Robotbeat » Jun 21, 2002 @ 8:58pm

I just want to find out if you guys with the e740 are benchmarking with it plugged-in to the wall. Apparently, the Imageon will reduce the performance of itself and also reduce the refresh rate of the LCD when it's in "battery mode". Since I think the XScale does this at the same time, these things could add up to an overall huge loss in performance when running in "battery mode". Now, you might say that it isn't worth having a fast processor when you can only use it a lot when plugged in. I agree with you. However, if my hunch is correct, then the problem could be solved relatively easily by a little bit of software, maybe even a simple registry hack.

So... Are you guys benchmarking with the e740 plugged in or not? Try benchmarking them while plugged in and then again while unplugged to compare.
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Postby Digby » Jun 21, 2002 @ 9:00pm

Everything is fixable. But that really depends on what your expectations are. Do you expect the e740 to be twice as fast as an iPaq because the Toshiba device is running at near twice the clock rate? Do you expect all of your existing games written for the StrongARM to run 2x the speed on an e740? That isn't going to happen.

Let me see if I can simplify my previous analysis for you. In the links to the benchmarks I posted earlier here is the performance of the e740 relative to the iPaq. (Values >1.0 mean that this feature is faster on the e740, <1.0 mean that the feature is slower on the e740)

Floating point ops: 1.57
Integer ops: 1.57
BitBlt: 4.47
StretchBlt: 0.33
Filled ellipse: 2.52
Filled rect: 11.00
Filled round rect: 2.08
Memory allocation: 1.28
Memory fill: 1.77
Memory move: 0.44
Text: 0.64


From that list above, the operations that are slower on the e740 are StretchBlt, memory moves, and text drawing. All of the filling operations are faster, and in some cases significantly faster probably because they are being accelerated via the ATI graphics controller.

The StretchBlt and text drawing results make me think that they are being performed in software rather than with the ATI. Perhaps the ATI can only do 1:1 blits? In any case, these are the sort of things that *might* be fixable with a new display driver provided that the hardware has support for the feature.

The memory move benchmark is the interesting number because the processor is running at a higher clock rate and yet it can only move memory at less than half the speed of the iPaq. Looking at the memory fill result though, it is faster on the e740. It's about what I would expect in moving from a 206 mhz chip to a 400 mhz chip. So that tells me that there is something odd in *reading* memory.

This type of problem can affect an entire system, and if it's a hardware limitation there's not much that software can do to reduce this other than reading fewer bytes. The important thing to note is that your existing apps running fine on a StrongARM today would have to be rewritten for an XScale in order to "fix" this. For that matter, so would the operating system.

For applications that used the C runtime routines (memcpy, memmove) to move large chunks of memory around, it's possible that MS could deliver an XScale optimized version of these and that might help. The XScale does have a new instruction that performs a prefetch to reduce the affect of a cache miss. I have no idea if cache misses are even the problem though, and besides that would only help with reading memory via the CRT routines. There's so much other memory fetching going on in a system that doesn't use the CRT and it would still be 1/2 as fast as a StrongARM.

If it weren't for this apparent memory read anomaly, I'd guess that this new XScale device should run existing StrongARM applications about 1.5 times faster than if they were run on an iPaq. I think that's a reasonable expectation.

If anyone has an e740 it would be pretty easy to positively determine if reading memory is the problem. I'd be willing to send you a test application to run that would measure the memory bandwidth on your device.

Hope that helps.
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Postby Guest » Jun 21, 2002 @ 10:11pm

digby, go for it. I mean put that application up somewhere so we can try it.
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Postby Guest » Jun 21, 2002 @ 10:28pm

PS: It doesn't run any faster with the unit plugged-in. (We would have noticed by now!)
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Postby Robotbeat » Jun 21, 2002 @ 10:32pm

What I meant was like a full-fledged benchmark program to test everthing precisely to see if the Imageon has some sort of powersave feature.
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Postby Robotbeat » Jun 21, 2002 @ 10:32pm

Thanks, though.
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Postby Guest » Jun 21, 2002 @ 10:34pm

ok maybe somebody can do that for you.. but I'm pretty sure it's not any faster. Maybe it's fixed at 80Mhz or 14Mhz.
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Postby Guest » Jun 21, 2002 @ 11:08pm

toshtosh rules!
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Postby Robotbeat » Jun 21, 2002 @ 11:11pm

It's not that important.



What the heck is toshtosh?
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Postby dustobub » Jun 22, 2002 @ 3:21am

I have an e740, and I am very interested in all of this. I am very willing to do anything for the benefit of everyone else. Give me some apps to run and I will report back the results. Digby do you have any benchmarks i can run. I tried that yasrt benchmark but I couldn't get it to run. Any ideas

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Postby Guest » Jun 22, 2002 @ 4:17am

Is there a place to upload and download these routines on this board?

Of course we are all very interested in running tests (otherwise we wouldn't be reading this)
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Postby Robotbeat » Jun 22, 2002 @ 5:01am

YASRT isn't a benchmark, it's a program. You have to put a "scene.yst" text file into your root directory (My Pocket PC in Activesync) and activate the PocketYASRT executable. To use it as a benchmark, you need to time how long it takes between executing the program and when it is finished rendering. I am extremely confident (as in, 99.9% sure) that PocketYASRT isn't a GAPI-based program, but it does use your Pocket PC's cpu to the max. You can run it in the background and it will still render, so maybe someone (like me, when I stop being so lazy) can make a simple VB app to activate it and use different scene files and average how long it takes to do each and then compare that to running the app on another machine.

I'll probably time this app by myself when the e740s come to Circuit City, Best Buy, CompUSA or whatever as on-display devices. (I love IR ports! I loaded different themes on one the new iPAQs at my local Best Buy store... Good thing no one was really looking or smart enough to figure out what I was doing... :lol: )
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Postby Dustobub » Jun 22, 2002 @ 6:04am

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Postby entropy1980 » Jun 22, 2002 @ 10:05am

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Postby Guest » Jun 22, 2002 @ 11:09am

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